I want to know what Wauf thinks.
I feel like there's no right point to euthanize your beloved pet. You're either beating the shit out of yourself because you waited too long and caused them undue suffering, or beating the shit out of yourself because you were just a bit too early and denied them of some more loving time on this earth.
My chest feels like it's caving in on itself. The two things I've lived for for the past 8 years of my life, my whole world, gone within 3 months of each other, and I feel guilt on opposite ends for each, even if the vet strongly recommended it for the case that may have been 'too early.' If there's a 'sweet spot,' a time that's 'right' to get it done, I sure as shit never found it. But it does need to be done at some point, so as to not let them suffer even more than waiting too long would.
I want to know what Wauf thinks.
A few years ago, my dog Oscar caught an incredibly rare fungal infection in his lungs while we were on vacation in northern Wisconsin.
I live in a pretty rural area, and the local vet just didn't have the equipment needed to treat him, and even if she did it would have cost thousands of dollars and there was a chance it wouldn't even work.
Oscar was suffering. I think we made the right choice when we had him put down. I just hope he understood that we loved him
I grew up with a dad who thought the appropriate way to put an old dog down was to smash it’s skull in with a hammer so I’m greatly for animal euthanasia. If they can’t see/hear/eat because no teeth? What sort of life is that for a dog?
>If they can’t see/hear/eat because no teeth? What sort of life is that for a dog?
A good one? Obviously, it's case by case but I don't see the issue or justification for euthanasia. No teeth? Soft food exists. Can't see and hear? I'd just have to be diligent when walking them and helping them navigate. Sure they probably couldn't run like crazy at the park but they could still walk around and smell stuff. It also doesn't change that I'd cuddle and love them all the same.
It's just if people have the capacity to change their life for their pet or just to euthanasia them out of convenience.
Usually animals who are that old are also shitting everywhere and kind of just wandering around in a daze though.
That's why I said case by case. And who cares if they're shitting everywhere? IF their QoL is bad, then yeah, but just because they are shitting? That's euthanasia out of convenience.
Idk, the theoretical dog is different between us.
I'm sorry for your loss.
I can't find it off the top of my head, but somewhere on my old hard drive there's an article that talks about the idea that there's no such thing as a hard decision: if one choice is obviously better than the other, take the better choice. If there's no way to tell which choice is better at the time you're making the choice, just flip a coin. That was a very helpful thing for me to hear.
The pain you are feeling right now is grief. You are in pain because of loss, not because you failed to find the optimum solution to a puzzle. There was no puzzle, no perfect moment. There was a series of tradeoffs. There were multiple good moments, and you picked one. You took on their pain so they could go in peace, and that's nothing to feel bad about. Grieve, but don't hold yourself responsible for a problem without a solution.
Godspeed, may brighter days be soon.
Animals want to live
They do not care about the suffering like you do. They do not have existential, philosophical dread. They do not ask why their life continues, or care if it is useful to others or not. They do not have goals they wanted. They do not say "if i can't ____ i might as well die, I have nothing".
They just want to live. That's it They avoid death at all costs.
If you used a euthanasia method they could comprehend, if you smashed a dogs head in in front of your soon to be euthanized dog, and said "dont worry its painless", they would try and keep their head away from that shovel or CBP.
Animals will tell you when they have stopped trying to live. They stop eating/drinking, and you can just see it in their behavior that they are done.
If you kill an animal that is still trying to live, I think it's a little messed up. I don't blame you because basically all of us have it drilled into our skulls that to not actively kill our pets is somehow selfish, and that if we truly love our pets then we will kill them at some arbitrary point of bad enough health. I also don't blame anyone because I can imagine just how hard it is not to see that as the obvious answer when your pet is suffering immensely. Still I think even if there are right times to euthanize, pet owners are probably euthanizing more than is appropriate imo
mostly its just because they are tired of cleaning up after their incontinent, vomiting pets.
>If you kill an animal that is still trying to live, I think it's a little messed up.
It is, but it also feels messed up not to. When everyone's looking at you like you're crazy for not having euthanized them yet. When you love them so, so much and are hurting from their suffering, and have multiple people seemingly question that because you wont do this 'for them', it fucking messes with your brain real bad.
In the case of my first ferret to pass, by the time he stopped eating he had gone through so much pain, and the lymphoma had progressed to such a degree that they didn't even know whether they found the vein when they injected him, and he woke up on the table to scream, pee, and poop himself. The vet spent five minutes rubbing the site of injection before taking him away to stick him again in a different room, then hand him back in my arms. When he stopped breathing, his face muscles were twitching, and his paws grasping. It was thoroughly traumatic and I blamed myself for waiting 'too long,' which is how I got to
Thing is I made this thread and post right before I buried him. When I took him out of the box, he had a bit of blood around his nose, possibly from all the difficulty he had breathing before passing. So now I'm worrying if everyone was right and whether I waited too long instead, even though I had felt I was doing it too soon before. I don't know, I feel he deserved perfection, and the fact he was still playing in the end fucking kills me. It hurts so bad.
The only thing I can be 'proud' of is that I strongly requested to hold him in my arms to comfort him as much as I could as they would apply the anesthesia, and said without any hesitation that I don't care about me and only care about him when the nurse said it would be traumatic for me. It was, but I DON'T care about me, I just wanted what was best for him. But even then I don't know if the act of holding him itself was 'good,' since his lost conscious thoughts were comfort in my arms, then pain from a needle in his leg, and trying to wriggle out of my hands before going under very quickly while sinking back into my arms. I worry whether he felt betrayed rather than comforted. I just beg them both to forgive me, that I couldn't find a time that worked for either.
I appreciate your post. I'm sorry I don't have much to add.
>by the time he stopped eating he had gone through so much pain,
I suppose I was lucky in a lot of ways. Her pain was managed by pills, she also wasn't bothered by much. When she couldn't use her back legs, it didn't stop her from wanting to run around when she realized I was supporting her with a sling. Also, during the euthanasia, despite being motionless the car ride over, before the doctor sedated her, she lifted her head and looked into my eyes and I held her head up until she fell asleep. It truly was as peaceful as it could've been.
I'm sorry yours and many others didn't have the same experience as me but as I said before, one good thing wouldn't save you from the pain. Even if the end was perfect, you'd be beating yourself up about everything else you did "wrong".
It truly is a no-win scenario. If you're lucky and not like me, your pain will fade with time. Good luck, Anon.
>Her pain was managed by pills
For my first ferret he was given painkillers but they didn't seem to help at all, and what's worse is he hated the taste so much he'd actively claw at his mouth. It was difficult to both prevent him from clawing and to wipe from around his mouth, so he inevitably would get is paws in and on one occasion they had blood on them. The thing that was there to help him not only wasn't helping him, but making it all worse.
I paid $180 for compounded versions of his medication to get them in chicken flavor, but they came out thicker than maple syrup and virtually unusable, and when I did get them in his mouth he reacted the same.
>one good thing wouldn't save you from the pain. Even if the end was perfect, you'd be beating yourself up about everything else you did "wrong".
Thing is I'm beating myself up about everything on top of this.
>Good luck, Anon.
Thank you. I don't know if I ever should forgive myself.
Experiencing nothing is better than experiencing nothing but suffering.
I will agree that euthanasia is used too frequently, but to claim it is wholesale unconscionable is ignorant. When your loved one wont eat, drink, or move, and is screaming in agony shitting themselves with anal prolapse, and that's their only future due to there being no treatment options, then a swifter death is ultimately better.
Most people don't draw the line at won't eat or drink (basically the start of suicide)
If the animal appears slightly uncomfortable and won't play fetch or whatever that's when they start killing shit, "because his lifes purpose is gone, he must be so depressed" no he's just old and doesn't have energy "i feel so bad for them i would want to die too if i was like that" yeah and now it's 20 years later y ou're like that, and threatening to light shit on fire if you're put in a home
I agree with you, man. But we're really not talking about that.
What are your thoughts on the story actually provided in this thread? Of having severe difficulty breathing due to a huge mass in their chest that can't be treated, that is rapidly getting worse, but they're still playful in spite of the very apparent pain at the time of their death?
Nothing is better than experiencing nothing but suffering. Better? Holy shit, what semantics.
What does "better" even mean to someone who no longer exists? It's like dividing by zero, it makes no sense.
It means that nothing but suffering is worse because it's purely negative whereas nonexistence is neutral you nimrod. You get nothing positive or negative out of nonexistence, whereas you get nothing positive but everything negative out of a life of nothing but suffering.
>Experiencing nothing is better than experiencing nothing but suffering.
How could it be? You don't even experience nothingness, you don't experience. At all.
>you, i canadian: i love you and people are shaming me for leaving you alive and i hate to see you hurt so i am going to kill you. i don't really care what you think. your hurties are making me hurty so your life has to end.
>me, in daily pain: i will kill YOU if you go near me after saying that you gay. get out of my house. it hurts to shoulder this shotgun and it will hurt more to fire it but you'll hurt most of all.
>you, a canadian: this is why we need to finish banning guns! help, mounties, he's resisting the greater good!
>a dog, in daily pain: <doesn't speak english and has no idea what you're going to do>
Euthanasia is selfish. It doesn't spare the dying anything; they don't get to experience not-suffering post death, they don't experience anything, so how could it benefit them? The only one who benefits are the living; they don't have to watch or pay for the suffering anymore.
>so how could it benefit them?
They don't suffer anymore. It's that simple. You take an animal in terrible pain who has a low quality of life with no hope of getting better and you end that suffering. Letting them go on suffering is what's selfish.
This was my biggest fear when I had to put my girl down of 18 years. It felt unfair because cancer took her away, not old age. I believe I’m one of the few lucky ones who truly did pick the right moment, but it wasn’t me who made the call. You see, it was my dog who made it clear that it was time. I was adamant in her last year to never drag her due to my fear of losing her and instead carry her until she wanted to go.
I remember the night so clearly. I had her chicken, as I was spoiling her until the end, but she didn’t eat it. She just looked at me, then laid her head down and didn’t move an inch. I tried urging her, but deep down, I knew this was it. I regret it to this day, but I yelled at her, telling her to eat. And she didn’t. She was literally waiting to die. The entire ride, I tried to rationalize or maybe take her to another vet to get more surgery. But I was just trying to bargain. I believe the only thing I can be proud of is that I truly did pick the right time to put her down but that doesn’t spare me from the suffering of other thoughts.
Maybe if I had taken her in sooner they would’ve found the cancer? Maybe if I didn’t get her surgery it wouldn’t have become aggressive? Why didn’t I take her out for more walks? Why didn’t we go to the beach? Why, why, why, why, why, why, why. It never stops and time doesn’t help. It’s so bad that doctors say the depression has caused severe brain damage and that effectively, to my brain at least, my entire body is always in pain.
Is there a perfect moment? Yes. But no one but you and your dog can know. My vet told me weeks/months before to put her down, but I knew her better than him. If I listened to the doctor, I truly would’ve regretted that. But for now, I just regret everything else I did wrong.
Never agreed with euthanasia, if my pet is sick I would still take care and make it feel better even if it would die.
Though, one time I had a Siamese kitten, who's about 8 months old. He got sick, something about his throat and heart. Despite being sick, he looks absolutely healthy, he's neither thin nor too fat, he can still walk eat and drink just fine.
We get him checked the second time since he was feeling down. We left him at the clinic. Just three days later, he's dead. He's put inside a cardboard box. He looks exactly like the way we left him. There's this feeling that it didn't die, but rather was euthanized
Anyways, when I peeked in the box, he looks very peaceful, the same he looks when he's sleeping. I'll miss him so much
>Damned if you do, damned if you don't
I think pic rel from veterinary medicine is a good measure. I've found it's helped me accept the times it's happened, not for the scoring but to have a guide on what to be mindful of when considering it.
It's never easy but is a possibility we take on a pet owners.
I'm unsure how to reconcile that chart.
My ferret was almost 8 years old, and had a mass in his chest that was causing him difficulty breathing, and was worsening day by day. His nostrils would flare, his chest heave, etc., but he was still energetic and playful. When I took him in to be seen, they very strongly recommended euthanasia based on what they were seeing, and they performed ultrasound to confirm the mass had gotten larger and there was no liquid in his chest to drain as a treatment (I can't afford chemo). I was playing with him right before he was put under, with him tunneling through the sleeve of my jacket. He was grunting, but he was still playing.
I don't know if I should have waited just a day or two more. I worry he wasn't ready to go. I just don't know.
I wish I put down my dog sooner I'll say that much. It was selfish of me and because it of it my dog endured more pain than necessary.
You say that, but if you did you'd feel like you killed him, betrayed him, or robbed him of some time left on this earth he could have sorta enjoyed before things got really bad. You'd spend your days thinking of even the minutes more you could've spent with him before shit got too much for him, and wondering whether he would forgive you or understand. Waiting late is horrible in it's own sense, but at the very least you know you aren't taking anything from them.
Between the two I have more guilt over the one I got sooner. Of course, I know if I had waited I would feel the opposite.
>robbed him of some time left on this earth
Even if it is nominally true in certain cases, the animal themself has no awareness of this. They have no sense of wanting to live to see their 15th birthday or whatever other arbitrary expectation you're imposing on them. They're simply alive and dealing with the day that they have, and near the end, that day is 99.9% guaranteed to be worse than all the days that came before, and it'll repeat that way until they expire via whatever means.
When you look at it in the scheme of their whole lives, giving them 'another month' when they've already lived 100-200 months is a pretty paltry gift, especially when it's probably going to be the worst month they ever have, and especially when they have no awareness of it being a gift at all. It's not selfish to terminate them sooner than later, they don't have any feeling of being robbed of something, they won't resent you for it.
Same for me. I should've done it sooner.