Are dolphins sentient? When will there be an attempt to learn their language and communicate with them to find out?
Are dolphins sentient? When will there be an attempt to learn their language and communicate with them to find out?
Are dolphins sentient? When will there be an attempt to learn their language and communicate with them to find out?
>When will there be an attempt to learn their language and communicate with them
there was an experiment in the 70s or something, ended with the dolphin constantly wanting to fuck the trainer so she started to give him handjobs. I also think they tried to give dolphins LSD, that plus the interspecies sexual activities put a halt on similar experiments cause animal abuse n shit
the dolphin was reportedly having an amazing time and killed himself when he realized the experiment was over because living as a zoo exhibit after doing drugs and having wild sex all day was too much to bear
so clearly they are at least as smart as a 15 year old emo
>my gf is gone and my parents took my weed. imma cut myself.
How does a dolphin even kill himself
They're voluntary breathers and voluntary half-sleepers. They can just decide to die at any time and be half asleep for it so it's not as painful.
They have to go to the surface to breathe, anon.
They just stop breathing. The John Lilly dolphin drowned himself when his instructor wouldn't jerk him off anymore
Dolphins are smarter because the experiment is actually an experience that will never be matched whereas the emo will eventually find a new gf
>that halt on similar experiments
Not quite, nowadays at least, I recall an experiment not too long ago that gave an attempt of translating the sounds rats make using machine learning.
Going off that point I imagine trying to do an animal translation experiment in the current time is far, far easier than it was in the 70s, considering the technological advancements. What is perhaps harder in this case, is getting enough free contact with the same animal to gather the needed data, unlike rats dolphins arent exactly readily available. Still, all it takes is someone with the willpower and goal of doing it.
https://www.nationalgeographic.com/animals/article/dolphins-use-tools-peers-similar-great-apes
dolphins are no smarter than dogs. all the meme shit in the 60s where they tried to teach them english and use them to spy on the soviets or whatever was all pseudoscientific nonsense at best. anything that they claimed was remarkable about them was observable in other species. not to mention the one girl that was jerking off her dolphin and living with it.
dolphins are roughly as smart as great apes and have demonstrated intelligence on par with but not exceeding them.
also literally everything from rats up has communication and some rudimentary self awareness
The intelligence research I've seen about dolphins was way more impressive than what I've seen about dogs. I can't remember many examples (mostly because the tests were fairly complicated) but I do know that dolphins and dogs react completely different to mirrors. Young dogs get angry at mirrors, older dogs just ignore it. Dolphins display unusual behaviours and twist their bodies to look at different body parts.
My dog never got angry at mirrors and sits in front if them and slowly moves their head
Remember most studies on dogs are done with shit like labs and beagles. That’s like studying human intelligence using tribal africans.
tl;dr: dolphins are intelligent and it's okay to have sex with them
/thread
If dolphins are less intelligent than humans but just barely and they also have variation I wonder if there are ever exceptionally smart dolphins who found themselves all alone in a pod filled with non-sentients. It must be so sad 🙁
i'm that dolphin
sentience is on a spectrum
>sentience works like autism
Really makes me think
Aren't there documented stories of dolphins committing suicide out of grief? Seem pretty sentient to me
Suicidal humans are not what I would consistently fully self aware. Suicidal animals likewise are just broken. No fully self aware animal would kill itself.
Source: my ass
If you are suicidal, you are only partially self aware. Your mind is broken. For you this is a lower state. For an animal it can be proof the their maximum level of self awareness and still it’s a fault.
>You can cycle through having and not having sapience multiple times throughout your lifetime
This is basically what you're saying.
you cycle through being self aware and not multiple times a day. you might go entire days without being self aware.
the only thing that makes you qualify as "generally self aware" is the larger amount of time you spend being self aware, that you are self aware in an observable way due to your instinctive grooming behavior, and your capacity to remember it and tell us about it later whenever we ask you if you're self aware. then you turn on your self awareness and say "yeah", and go back to running on autopilot like a bug.
obviously pretty much every animal has some capacity for self awareness but they don't use it most of the time. just like you.
While I agree, people don't tend to make suicide plans when they zone out. How are people supposed to write suicide letters if they're not self aware? The whole connection between lack of self awareness and suicide was just pulled out of your ass.
They're partially self aware
They're aware they're sad and don't want to be but they're not aware of their place in the world. It's a disordered and primitive form of self awareness. Plain self-interaction without broader comprehension. Being an emo gay is a more primitive state than having clear hopes and expectations for an improvement in your life.
Just a bunch of arbitrary made up crap. People have no special place or purpose in this world. For some people life is unrewarding and they end up in a vicious cycle. You can tell people to escape that cycle but you can't actually tell how except ''just go to the gym, bro''.
Found the lesser mind.
Not an argument. You're being an armchair psychologist while making no effort to understand people's thought processes.
>''just go to the gym, bro''.
unironically
You know, you write just like that retard who was trying to say the sauropods are mammals and theropods are 4 legged lizards. I'm beginning to think you are that same retard.
This is the most bullshit thing I've heard today, self preservation is one of the most basic evolutionary traits, the ability to overrule that is definitely a sign of higher intelligence. You are quite literally contemplating your own existence to the degree that you have decided its not worth living.
ix
If dolphins can ask for help from humans and they themselves help humans in distress I don't understand they could NOT be intelligent
dogs do that too. well guys i guess dogs are sapient. so are cows.
Never with wild cetaceans, at least not to my knowledge. I don't know why exactly that is, but I assume that it would require a lot of time and money to keep a group of wild dolphins around that we could try to experiment with. We know they have symbolic language and we also know that they have a hierarchical system when they speak (hierarchical meaning that they combines sounds to form words to form sentences and so on). We also know that they have the equivalent of proper nouns for both individuals and groups.
>How so?
They simply don't attach the same ideas and meanings to their sounds that we do, at least as far as we can tell.
Someone watched the fake mermaid documentary
There is no evidence dolphins have anything more than basic animal signals. Fuck even a dog can be taught “take ball to basket” and “take basket to ball”.
Man you can find studies from the fucking 90s explaining this shit.
I have read that some birds also have names like dolphins do
why is there no option to report zoophilia freaks on this board?
Cetaceans are not at the level of a human. It’s like fucking a toddler but you say it’s okay because you gave them a gun first.
Basically unless they can explain to you that you are a gross manchild that doesn’t deserve to breed and why, it’s rape and they can’t consent. You’re taking advantage of them to have sex you don’t deserve and forcing shame on them that they can’t expect or comprehend. All because you’re too immature to deal with a woman and god forbid do what she wants.
and no you do not have a response
you are disgusting and I don’t want you in my society or my species. change yourself so you can get laid normally or end your own life.
Mad roastie
>sex you don’t deserve
A line only a woman could conceive of
I’m a man. Unless you function somewhat properly in society you should be denied friends, sex, and employment until you change or have a nice day. There are punishments for being disgusting and useless. Stop being a disgusting failure and have white children.
If we were having this conversation in person I would be holding a broken bottle up to your face after making you bleed. Animal fucker.
>Cetaceans are not at the level of a human.
Not universally, but many of them are.
>All because you’re too immature to deal with a woman and god forbid do what she wants.
Are you saying it would be somehow easier for me to go all the way to the ocean and fuck a dolphin then it would be for me to head down to the bar on a friday night and chat up some pussy to bring home?
No, they aren’t. Their brains are less organized and the prefrontal cortex is smaller compared to their body. They have not accomplished as much as humans would have if you put them underwater without hands and never will. Dolphins are probably as smart or maybe a little smarter than apes.
>it would be easier
For you, because a dolphin is a dumb animal without standards that has no idea if you are attractive and normal or not and women will call the cops on you just for saying you think it’s okay to fuck a dolphin and then have chad beat you up. If it wasn’t easier you wouldn’t be making excuses for being a rapist.
>oh are you implying prostitutes are hard? I had to drive across town and spend $75!
>random women at bars are hookers
It's interesting that's what your mind went to first. Only retards pay for pussy.
>They have not accomplished as much as humans would have if you put them underwater without hands and never will.
Ok then tell us what all humans would have accomplished in the same situation.
>Dolphins are probably as smart or maybe a little smarter than apes.
Nah
Humans would have shown nose or flipper writing at this point and dolphins can’t make an honest effort to communicate with us. They appear to be ape smart with a giant sonar module making their brain look larger than the thinking part is.
>try to write message in sand for others
>it disappears within a few hours so you can't keep it for posterity
>can't write any sort of sign or warning so you're better off just telling it verbally
Humans used ephemeral nonverbal communication for ages and we still do.
No, they don’t. They have varied calls and we don’t know how they’re structured. What we do know is that they don’t have a language or human- like or better intelligence. These creatures have never demonstrated hominid type intelligence beyond that of an orangutan. At best they are speaking sonar images to each other like robots sharing image recognition data for locating targets.
>ephemeral nonverbal communication
Which isn't writing. Dolphins do it as well btw
Dolphins do not make signs. They haven’t even attempted to mimic our sign making. They’re dumb animals. You just saw the big brain and got hopeful that you could justify your need to fuck an animal. Look at you, making shit up about an animal that cant be taught writing or basic sign making (stack of rocks? Half buried stick? Dolphins cant) because you want to fuck it.
All this shit isn't even relevant. Animals aren't children. It's not like the dumber an animal is the more innocent it is. A dildo can't consent because it doesn't even have a brain, illegalize sex with dildos!
You said ephemeral though. None of the things you have described are though. Wanna try again?
They are underwater
Not if they’re just repeating shit they’ve seen. Monkeys can say “hawk” and “cat” do they have language now?
>Not if they’re just repeating shit they’ve seen.
So if they make up stories to tell each other would you consider it language?
If a monkey says hawk but it never saw a hawk does it have language now?
How about they tell stories of things that simply can’t exist? Of course with that kind of intelligence they would have also been able to figure out how to at least try to communicate with humans and build signs for each other
>build signs for each other
Most animals can do this without building anything
>. They haven’t even attempted to mimic our sign making.
Why would they? They don't hands obviously, or paint. How would they even attempt to know our languages specially if most of them hardly interact with us? How would they know what letters are and that we use them to communicate?
counterpoint:
why would a Dolphin care to communicate with humans that badly.
This is hubris, they probably think we are stupid and the buildings were just "there"
they aren’t very smart then because we captured them so they should be trying to ask to leave
>so they should be trying to ask to leave
how do you know their squealing isn't that? it's not as if people who'd hunt a dolphin would care either way
they don’t even have appendages to manipulate the world around them, they can’t even bangs rocks together. I don’t know where they’d get the mental facilities to understand what we are let alone our lifestyle choices
Birds can bang rocks on shit. Tiny brained birds with the smarts of a macaque. Dolphins have mouths no? At least a few of them figured out how to hold a sponge but they seem to be less creative than a crow on average.
Yeah what I mean is I don’t see what selection pressures they have that necessitate anything near as sophisticated and abstract as how humans communicate. like it’s not like they even have the option to make things like fire or sharpened sticks
They could make sharpened sticks or hold simple tools to get stuff out of holes. They can’t.
>They could make sharpened sticks
how?
>grab stick
>chew end until pointy
>hold stick in mouth and use it to stab into a hole to get something out of it
Basically SOME dolphins have done something ALMOST this advanced but they aren’t as clever as a monkey.
>>chew end until pointy
don't think that would work
Not for a retarded fucking dolphin no it wouldn’t. They wouldn’t even figure that out. They aren’t smart enough to conceive of it. Rather than be smart they just swim a few miles looking for more fish. Because they aren’t really that smart. Maybe as smart as apes, most likely less. Without much physical interaction with the world their brains don’t develop a way to conceive altering objects. They are like a more clever wolf with the social skills of a monkey but way less creativity. They can’t even develop it.
You started out this thread pretending that dolphins are literally brain dead. Now you've had to concede so much ground that you're admitting that they're up there with apes. When are you going to stop making a fool of yourself? You did the same thing in the Jakapil thread.
All of my posts said they were like toddlers and apes.
What do they gain out of this that they don't already from their normal methods of hunting? Their advanced methods of corralling schools of fish are far more efficient.
Now if suddenly there aren't as many fish and they have to adapt to hunting for crustaceans that would make more sense. The same way early human ancestors had to adapt to walking upright and hunting/foraging for food on the Savanna when the forests in Africa started to die off as the ice age dried the world out.
Material conditions are the antithesis that facilitates the thesis of evolution and progress.
And where would they get these sticks? I don't know if you've noticed this, but there isn't any wood in the sea.
>driftwood
rotting wood is not useful
Driftwood is actually pretty durable for simple tools and common on shorelines where dolphins will often go to hunt. We don’t see very many dolphins using tools like we see almost every chimp using tools.
Youj wouldn't even know how to catch fish with driftwood if you had the body of a dolphin
dolphin disrespecting anon still hasn't responded to this
Isn't this literally the kind of behavior you are talking about?
>At best they are speaking sonar images
But if they use sonar images to convey thoughts wouldn't that be a type of language?
>they can’t consent
When will anti-bestiality people realize they're just repeating #metoo talking points
>has sex with a fat girl once
>defending women
deeply embarrassing, do not pass GO do not collect 200 dollars
animals dont give sex/mating the psychological and amorous meaning we give, also they cant get pregnant from a human male, even if they could they wouldnt give a fuck
what makes rape what it is is the fact its sex with someone you dont love or feel attracted to, and there's the risk of unwanted pregnancy
this breathtaking portrait of forbidden love left me in a state of wonderment at the delicate nature of erotic oddity. powerfully moving.
Basically all animals are sentient, I think you mean sapient, meaning self awareness and higher thought.
It's very hard to quantify, but dolphins definitely qualify for sapience.
Sapient is a moving target with no strict definition meant to separate humans and animals. It can not be proven without language so it might as well mean language which only humans have. Voila, everything but us is lesser, missing the important label!
Even self awareness seems to be on a spectrum and yet you can still argue that humans aren’t self aware. They’re just language bots with more complicated calls than most apes but not much higher than computers speaking tcp/ip.
>computer: i support ipv6. i will reject all queries on port 42069.
omg they’re self aware
wait
>human: i like ketchup. i will not eat the bugs.
WAIT
Don't dolphins, other cetaceans and birds have language?
Cetaceans do and it's actually rather advanced, comparable to our own languages. Birds don't have the associations that our and cetacean languages do.
Has there ever been any attempt to find equivalences between cetacean and human languages so as to devise a way to communicate between us?
>Birds don't have the associations that our and cetacean languages do.
How so?
>it might as well mean language which only humans have.
Most animals do have a language.
To me something is sapient when it can put someone from one context into another, unprompted.
human: hmmm, want to eat bird, but bird up there.... human use rock? human throw rock at bird. yum bird.
computer: [instructed to get bird] bird can be obtained with bow and arrow, gun. no gun. no bow and arrow. cannot obtain bird. [instructed to consider a rock] considering the rock. rock is not bow and arrow. rock is not gun. [instructed to imagine using rock as a projectile] rock might be a projectile. projectile can kill bird. rock can kill bird.
sorry, someTHING from one context, not someONE
That’s a lucky reasoning error from a glitchy spaghetti mess of a brain. We have made computer programs that do this.
>thinking about bird
>start thinking about bird sized rock out of nowhere (random error)
>begin probing neural network for possible connections
if cetaceans could write and build they'd probably be able to reach human-level intelligence
>if
That's the point idiot, they don't. Your statement could be applied to any animal.
>if slugs could write and build they'd probably be able to reach human-level intelligence
what I meant was, if cetaceans had an anatomy compatible with the processes of writing and building (like we do), they could evolve into an intelligence analogous to ours. Their anatomy and lifestyle limit their potential
Their life span is the actual limiter
how much do they live?
>Their anatomy and lifestyle limit their potential
Yyyyyes that's how it works, congrats, anatomy and lifestyle allow intelligence and ability to develop, not the other way around, it's the lottery of life. Marine species have zero chance to build anything just because of their environment.
Wild hogs build pigloos, are they sapient?
a pigloo is a bunch of cat tails shoved into a pile that the pig then crawls into
wolves and coyotes will dig out dens under rocks so that the dirt continues to support the sturdy roof
and humans seem to have a very hard time coming up with something to live in that isn't a cylinder with a cone on top or a box with a pyramid or flat thing on top unless they are unusually intelligent for their species. at best, less intelligent humans just copy the non cylinder/box houses of smarter ones.
>a pigloo is a bunch of cat tails shoved into a pile
poor cats 🙁
>only humans are sapient
>now only some humans are sapient
This is going to end with only you being sapient isn't it?
No one said anything about sapience. Just being a bit stupid. Rigorously define sapience, no mumbo jumbo like “higher thought”.
And now you backtrack.
tbf, hominids certainly had language FAR before we could write. The Sumerians had the first written language we know of and that only goes back ~5,000 years and was only known by a select few scribes. Widespread literacy and writing ability was only really a thing after the printing press and that was only ~3-400 years ago
I would like to widen this discussion to include all animals.
Do animals have thoughts and ideas? If so, what do they think about?
If mammalian, lots of raw emotion I imagine? Although I'd be interested to know about their abilities in imaginative reasoning. For example, jumping spiders can actually plan a route ahead of them in 3D space to get to a destination. That implies that they're capable of "imagining" themselves reaching a destination via a particular path. Does something like that count as sentience? It does seem to be a self-referential way of thinking. If an animal with that small a brain is capable of so much, imagine what larger animals like dolphins must be able to think about.
they're precious little water geniuses that's what