I've seen some anons here seething at American Indians for supposedly causing the extinction of America's megafauna, and not just the plistocene species. Buffalo runs in particular were brought up as the major factor for the animal's decline, completely ignoring the state sponsored eradication of the species. Even the argument for American Indians (as a cultural group) being responsible for the extinction of plistocene mega fauna doesn't make much sense, as by the time those cultures developed mammoths were long gone on the continent.
Where did this meme that American Indians, as opposed to settlers in the holocene and literal cavemen in the plistocene, caused the extinction the continent's megafauna come from?
bone china industry did the buffalo in. not buffalo jumps
white people just love to genocide things don't they? 3-5 billion messenger pigeons gone, european lions gone, saber-tooths and mammoths gone, like 50%+ deforestation rate in europe, etc. yet they love lecturing the rest of the world about shit like that.
Same as everyone else, just more effective.
and that's something you're proud of I bet? no wonder after white people failed to completely genocide themselves with world wars now they are just letting immigrants do it for them lmao
>it's fucking chinks yet again
Commissioned by the Queen at the time, Queen Victoria iirc. For tea sets and such.
Not sure you can blame china or england when the US government had a policy of exterminating buffalo to domesticate the plains indians.
use of their hides, meat, and bones was just a side effect. The US government purposefully wiped them out.
I'm talking about canadian affairs, not the states.
ah, good thing buffalo stopped at the canadian border then.
retard I'm not disagreeing about what was done in the states. just adding canadian history
I thought when anon said
>bone china industry did the buffalo in
he meant buffalo rather than just canadian buffalo, since they migrate.
china as in porcelain you dummies
>china as in porcelain you dummies
no, I got it.
where do you suppose a lot of china was made?
there was a factory in east london. my great uncle worked there.
great great* I mean.
Yep, that's why I said china and england
they were the main producers.
Just a reminder there's an alt-right "theory" going around saying that the original peoples that settled North America were white europeans and the Native Americans slaughtered them all so that's why the genocide of Native Americans was justified.
well the alternative is to pack up and leave and let them have the county back. All three sides know that's not going to happen so all three sides tell themselves whatever stories they need to believe to rationalize it.
the simple fact is the natives were powerful and fierce enemies, and when the fighting was done they were loyal and fierce americans. Both sides did terrible things, but it's easier to pity the losers. And they don't think of themselves as losers, nor do they want our pity. We are where we are through no fault of our own, and apologizing or justifying the acts of our ancestors is empty no matter how you do it.
the really fun part of course is they assert their right as independent nations to set up casinos and harvest american dollars which they then spend to buy back their ancestral lands.
probably one of the coolest ironies I know of. They mastered our system and are using it to restore their own. Nothing new though, they've always been fast to master our technology and use it against us.
is it true?
it really is a jarring experience when you meet stupid folks IRL and you realize you had somehow just been sequestered from them by class and privilege. the world's problems all make sense when you come to terms with how gay and stupid the people who aren't me are.
yep, there's no greater dunning kruger than a schizo that thinks they're a genius because their brain doesn't work.
>he's never enjoyed the ecstasy of looming over mental midgets
I can see your bald spot (your cerebellum) manlet, and it repulses me
if it makes you feel ecstacy, it's a delusion.
actual smart people are just a bit disappointed and lonely when they meet people like you.
they don't just meet me, they greet me and jeet me (pajeet because I have to turn to the emigrants from the subcontinent to find my equals). Meanwhile you're washing windows and are happy when it rains so you can get some extra help
well at least you can rhyme.
>Where did this meme that American Indians, as opposed to settlers in the holocene and literal cavemen in the plistocene, caused the extinction the continent's megafauna come from?
pure cope and whataboutism from the same pasty cunts that used to shoot Buffalo from trains and leave their corpses to rot
It was a really cool idea when they were a food source for their enemies, but they started regretting it once it was actually their land
>stupid buffaloes, how could you fall for such a simple trick? heh...
>*takes covid "vaccine"*
I think it’s less cultural than just humans being anywhere results in larger, slower reproducing animals dying off. Africa being an exception because humans evolved alongside the animals there
Large animals fuck less when people are watching.
Just dropping in to say that I like how the guy who always replies to the same post at least 3 times instead of just making one longer post like a normal person thinks anyone else is easy to spot.
I'm not pretending to be multiple people though.
that's your job and you're very bad at it.
>that's your job and you're very bad at it.
Oh I get it, you think I'm OP or something?
Yeah someone here is bad at things alright.
>you think I'm OP or something?
I also think you're at least 8 of the 11 current posters itt
I refuse to believe Wauf has that many actual retards on at the same time.
was my first post in the thread retard. You're a "scientist", allegedly, are you not? I hope your powers of deduction are a little sharper when you're on the job. But I doubt it.
I am on the job
the job is ID'ing a retard by his inability to attribute higher thinking than his own to others.
Anon you don't get it.
I'm literally *not* anyone else in the thread. I don't know how else to break this to you. Again, your powers of observation and deduction are piss poor.
You want to ID a retard? Look in the mirror.
You pay a lot of attention to my posts, it's quite flattering. Normally I respond dozens of times to a post though. Three is my minimum.
what I'm actually trying to do is make the commentary funny. Writing technical logic for retards isn't easy, and I notice the authors that do well make it funny.
I particularly like Douglas Adams, you can laugh through his entire body of work and never even realize you just got schooled by a genius writing down for retards.
>you can laugh through his entire body of work and never even realize you just got schooled by a genius writing down for retards.
Is that what you think is happening here whenever you post? That's adorable.
I can assure you it is not, right down to anyone laughing.
I'll try to dumb it down more in future.
Eventually you guys will see how humorous you truly are.
Essentially, because we have an implied mythology of native americans (and other low-tech populations like aboriginal australians) as being unchanging until the arrival of europeans. We don't really consider them to have been dynamic societies involved in mass migrations, wars, genocides, nation and empire-building, etc. but rather as 'noble savages' who existed in a basically steady state for thousands of years. Lack of good records is a big factor, but there are arguments that it is also part of the 'othering' europeans used to distinguish themselves from such people. Indigenous groups contribute to this, of course, by claiming paleolithic remains as members of their tribes, acting like their folklore is thousands of years old, and so on.
It's like you read a 1878 book on native americans and thought that's what everyone still believes.
what's wrong about it?
Nothing, it's a near perfect critique of how people thought 150 years ago.
oh, I see
Hold on let me check my pocket watch and dust off my top hat. Get in the buggy and drive my two in hand over to your lecture at the town hall.
what revolutionary and extraordinary observations, professor! We'll print those right up in our weekly digest and hand them out to everyone on the frontiers engaged in fighting the savages! This will change everything regarding our dealings with those scalp-stealing red men!
but seriously, your constant defense of victorian era beliefs marks you pretty easily. Whether it's "linnaean taxonomy" or thinking everyone buys the "noble savages" trope, you're at least 150 years behind reality all the time. Do you have an antique set of encyclopedias you're getting all your info from?
okay but whats wrong with it
like I said, it's a perfect refutation of stuff nobody believes anymore.
what the logical thinker might call a "straw man."
because you took ideas that nobody believes and then beat the shit out of them. Like beating a straw man you built just so you could defeat him.
what the fuck is wrong with you, I'm not even the same anon
I am asking you out of my own curiosity what is inaccurate about that statement, because I am not knowlegable on the topic
>there's more than one complete imbecile itt
I've explained what's wrong with it, and only a complete idiot wouldn't understand. Are you suggesting there are a bunch of literal retards here, because I doubt that.
so what you're telling me is that it is wrong because people in the past believed it? is it true or not?
why are you incapable of answering a simple question directly?
>why are you incapable of answering a simple question directly?
why can't you read, tard?
>Nothing, it's a near perfect critique of how people thought 150 years ago.
being overly pedantic in a casual setting does not make you appear intelligent
so which is it, tard?
do you honestly believe people are still clinging to ideas about native americans that were tossed in the trash in the 1800's?
why would you think that?
and more importantly, why would you think anyone else here thinks that? Just because you do and you think you're normal? I guarantee what you think is NOT normal.
different poster here, I live in ohio and can promise there are still a lot of retards out here that believe that shit, especially in the boonies
There seem to be an equal number in genetics laboratories and tribal reservations.
>I live in ohio
>why are you incapable of answering a simple question directly?
I'm curious if your failure to understand comes from
1. inability to read english
2. inability to understand ideas have changed in the last 150 years.
I'm honestly curious, and the best way to find out is
1. insulting you
2. asking you questions
>ideas have changed in the last 150 years
are the ideas in
based on fact?
you don't see how you attacking ideas that were discarded 150 years ago looks pretty stupid?
answer the question
what an idiot
do you get it?
your enemy tells you he's going to fight you and you know you can't win, so you build a straw man and dress him like your enemy and then beat up the straw man while everyone is watching. Hoping they'll be tricked into thinking you beat up your enemy.
that's why we call it a straw man. You assembled an argument you know you can defeat just for the purpose of defeating it.
and how do you know you can defeat this straw man?
because other people already defeated it over a century before you were born. It's so far out of date you had to dig it out of the graveyard and tape it together to keep it from falling apart on its own.
Thats how most people still think you dumbfuck retard
It's cool that you know most people are wrong, but you're a retard for thinking most people cane to the same conclusion as yourself
what kind of social wasteland do you inhabit where your friends and acquaintances have thoughts on the extinction of north american megafauna?
literally a topic no real person talks about.
GARY: hey Bob, want a beer?
BOB: Sure Gary, I've had a rough day
GARY: You do seem a bit down today. What's eating you?
BOB: It's the Quaternary Extinction again
GARY: I hear ya man, that one bugs me too
BOB: I understand all the butchering marks on mammoth bones and I've seen the clovis points for myself, but I just can't shake the feeling that Native Americans would NEVER do this!
GARY: I know what you mean buddy, It's like they're too connected to nature to cause ecological imbalance.
BOB: Yeah! They're too NOBLE!
GARY: Noble Savages, I tell you what
BOB: Thanks Gary, can I get another beer?
Where I live there's an indian reservation every 20 feet. They heat their homes with crack pipes, drink vodka straight to kill the giardia in their well water, and chase sheep, does, and children in pickup trucks with equal pleasure.
Nobody I know subscribes to the noble savage myth except maybe some crystal rubbing wiccan white women that sit home drinking ayahuasca and petting their adopted pit bulls. Even they can't maintain the illusion when they run to walmart for their essential oils and bath salts and get yelled at by some drunk navajo who wants their number.
It's a cruel world out there. People are a lot smarter than you give them credit for. Most of them anyways.
Damn, so we can make the same exact observation about a group 150 years apart and still come to the same conclusions?!? What could that mean?!???
nobody believes the "noble savage" trope, or if they do it's OP claiming natives could never have killed off megafauna because they're way too noble for that.
A lot of people believe in the "noble savage" trope though. That's how it became a trope to begin with.
>A lot of people believe in the "noble savage" trope though.
are they archeologists or paleontologists?
Ok, I'll help you out here. Just this once.
>nobody believes the "noble savage" trope
>no archeologist or paleontologist believes in the "noble savage" trope
are NOT, in fact the same statements. This concludes our English Language 101 for the night.
And that's also assuming that it's true no archeologist or paleontologist ever has believed it by the way. Which I have STRONG doubts over. Especially given how sensitive the topic of megafaunal extinction has become and how quick these same groups are to always invoke "muh climate change" as the sole reason instead.
Which also ignores, of course, how many interglacial periods these animals survived without a hitch previously. But I'm sure you already knew that.
I assumed OP was talking about academics, since nobody else publishes comments on the topic and if they did, nobody would pay to read them.
And I specifically said they used to be belived, 150 years ago. Meaning you're 150 years out of date and bashing a really dead horse.
but then if you insist no modern natives had ancestors that killed megafauna, you're the one seeming to do the noble savage thing. Not that any academic I know of agrees with you, but perhaps there are some I'm not aware of.
>But then if you insist no modern natives had ancestors that killed megafauna, you're the one seeming to do the noble savage thing.
Except I said no such thing, and this in fact is the opposite of my stance. Oh well, at least you've now graduated to acknowledging that I'm not OP. Baby steps I suppose.
then we're in agreement and OP and 8 of the other 13 posters itt think you're retarded for believing something virtually every scientist that studies the topic agrees with.
also now you have to convince me that you're not just me posting under a different IP.
IP standing up but UP sitting down, sally.
see, it's hard to be funny on the internet.
keep working on it.
*pisses on your face* nope, still ugly
meh. I think you can do better.
*pisses on your dick*
*pulls out microscope* nope, still ugly
made me smile, but to get a laugh it needs to be surprising.
*pisses on your face*
*crumples to ground*
I'm dying.... tell my wife, you're still ugly
ok, that one got a laugh. Nice build up
i think it's mostly just people not bothering to make the distinction between American Indians and their holocene or pleistocene ancestors. a lot of people do the same with europeans, i've seen the irish get blamed for the extinction of the irish elk
it's also probably just typical Wauf exaggeration for the sake of being constantly enraged
nobody is actually enraged, OP is just wishing they were. When he says anons were seething what he means is some anons disagreed with him politely and then wandered off when he started acting like the topic matters or something. He's been posting this same stuff regularly for years now and nobody cares.
He used to say humans had nothing to do with the extinction of megafauna. Now he at least says NO MODERN HUMANS had anything to do with it. Not exactly a brilliant and new observation.
OP here, this was an interaction I saw while lurking months ago. It just came back to me today and I decided to ask why they seemed so ass mad.
your retard takes ID you every time.
you might as well be tripfagging and using and avatar for how easy you are to spot year after year.
>He's been posting this same stuff regularly for years now and nobody cares.
Good lord i hope this is a bot or some shill
I cant imagine crusading a single topic on ANY board for more than an hour...
ESPECIALLY if that board is Wauf and no one really starts an argument against me about it... its just sad
Check the archives, we've had this thread at least 100 times in the last 5 years.
OP is nuts.
People and megafauna just don't cohabitate well.
The first men of America were not American Indians. The cultural markers of the American Indians did not appear until well after the plistocene. The French did not cause the extinction of megafauna in Europe and the American Indians did not cause the extinction of megafauna in America.
>people and megafauna dont cohabitate well
>africa still has megafauna
even more evidence africans arent people
All continents still have megafauna
Low IQ joke
Isnt there to make a difference in eg america for natives and Columbus? I mean, the problem is not homo sapiens, it is the scary psychopattern of gold seeking humans that destructs, isn't it?
Why are Africans so inefficient at fucking up the natural order?
probably from the enormous numbers of mammoths and other megafauna found with paleo points embedded in their bones and with butchering marks on the bones.
just a guess though. Maybe archeologists are just making stuff up and as you suggest buffalo were the only megafauna to exist alongside native americans.
American Indians are a different cultural group than the original cavemen that crossed from Asia. Saying they are the same is like saying that Germans are responsible for plistocene extinction in Europe. It is undeniable that human interaction played a part in the global decline of megafauna, but to suggest that any modern cultural group was responsible is stupid.
>to suggest that any modern cultural group was responsible is stupid.
yet every time we find their remains, modern tribes claim them as their own.
I agree the actual cultures were much different, but genetically they're probably the same people.
Apparently there were more than one wave of humans reaching the Americas. The first ones might have died by themselves, mixed with the new ones or were killed by the new ones. There are genetically distinct groups as well so they aren't a homogeneous group either.
>There are genetically distinct groups as well so they aren't a homogeneous group either.
false dichotomy as usual
we can tell your dna from your dad's but that doesn't mean you don't have the same ancestors.
There are evidence of other hominids before homo sapiens in the Americas. Certain groups don’t have the same ancestors as the other groups in the americas.
>There are evidence of other hominids before homo sapiens in the Americas.
>Certain groups don’t have the same ancestors as the other groups in the americas.
while there seem to be lots of human settlements before clovis, afaik there's no identifiable material cultures associated with them. Correct me if I'm wrong, I love reading about this stuff.
And the clovis culture is associated with megafauna kills and we have dna from clovis people proving they were ancestors to modern natives.
The extinction even happened over 10 000 years ago that is 5000 years before the first pharaoh. In a few hundreds of years the Roman empire rose, changed religion, changed again to Christianity and fell apart. That is not even 1000 years. It makes no sense to judge modern groups over something that happened before their civilization, language and culture even existed and to make things worse judge it by your current standards. It is like trying to make Italians accountable over something that cavemen did much before Italy existed, before the Roman empire existed, before the Italic people even settled in what one day would be Italy, 10 000 years is literally stone age.
OP here, thank you for actually understanding my point. I do not know what that schizophrenic anon was going on about me supporting the noble savage myth. My stance is that people we currently know as American Indians are of a different cultural group than the people responsible for the plistocene extinction. I am not saying anything about the nobility of any cultural group, nor am I denying that American Indians are dependents of the group that was responsible for the plistocene extinction.
This is what I assumed.
>I do not know what that schizophrenic anon was going on about me supporting the noble savage myth
that is because you are retarded
My family owned slaves in the 1500's. They also freed their slaves in the 1500's. There are now a lot of very black people in the world with my same last name. These are facts.
Do you think I can personally be blamed for my ancestors owning slaves? Do you think I blame myself? Do you think the argument "they were my ancestors, but NOT my culture" would matter if I was blamed?
You're doing the noble savage thing because you think modern indian cultures are not to blame, despite those indians and their cultures being direct descendants of the ones that killed off megafauna. You're saying they're too good to have done that. You're making excuses for a "crime" that isn't a crime at all and nobody cares about. No excuses need to be made. It's not my fault my ancestors owned slaves. Not because I'm NOBLE, but because I didn't personally do that.
it's not modern indians' fault there's no mammoths here. Not because they're NOBLE, but because they didn't personally do that. Their culture also can't be blamed, because even if it were the same culture as what you call cave men, we wiped that culture out. It is essentially gone now.
The other thing you don't realize is we can trace the clovis material culture directly through its evolution into more modern native cultures. Sure, it's not technically the exact same culture, but they are all descendant cultures
and to be honest, you should probably worry more about the loss of the native american culture than you seem to worry about megafauna going extinct. If not more, at least as much. Because the very little we know about those "cave men" as you like to pretend they are, comes from our knowledge of their literal genetic and cultural descendants, who we mostly wiped out.
And when I say "WE" wiped out the native culture, I don't mean me or you. I mean our ancestors.
this is a problem racists on Wauf often have. When you build your entire self-image on what your ancestors accomplished, you have to take the blame for what they did.
I've never killed an indian, but I have fucked a few and had a kid with one. I am not to blame for the loss of native culture and my kid is not to blame for the extinction of mammoths. We don't build our self-image off the accomplishments OR sins of our ancestors.
That's stupid racist thinking. Tribal thinking.
You are not a good person or a bad person because of the things your ancestors did. You are a worthless person because your self-worth comes from the actions of others.
I can't imagine being so rootless
yeah, it's not easy. You actually have to do things for yourself that make you feel proud or ashamed instead of relying on other people's accomplishments.
but you can do it. Believe it or not, that's what your ancestors had to do.
It sounds like you got angry over an argument on 4chan or something and tried running to Wauf, when you really should have gone to reddit
ah, you complete retards think modern indians are actually being blamed for the extinction of mammoths.
also you think it would matter if they were
that's hillarious. How stupid are you two people who are surely two completely different retards with the same retarded thoughts and surely not just one retard pretending to be two very different retarded people?
I mean, do you think Martin Two-Bear down on the rez is actually being blamed for the extinction of mammoths?
Do you think Martin Two-Bear down on the rez cares if some anons on Wauf blame him for the extinction of mammoths?
His ancestors killed off the mammoths, he doesn't care about that. He's got bigger things to worry about. Mostly getting drunk and getting laid from what I've seen. But the extinction of the mammoths isn't something that crosses his mind ever, and if it did he wouldn't care.
stop being two separate idiots, who are not the same idiot at all because clearly you're two different idiots talking to each other. What kind of idiot would pretend to be two different idiots talking to each other? That would be one crazy idiot.
are you perpetually stoned
kinda weird you can't tell normal human thought from intoxication.
Your ancestors ate babies, do you care about that? Are you to blame over that?